Robert Haack Diamonds responds to their position...

[roberthaackdiamonds]

[emphasis added]
Sir, we can legally open carry in your store/on your property unless you ask us to leave. What say you? Am I welcome in your business TODAY with a legally carried and loaded sidearm in plain view?

Yes, we have allowed open carry people in our store, the last one about 4 months ago.

 

[IcrewUH60]

Yes, we have allowed open carry people in our store, the last one about 4 months ago.

great! and everyone made it out alive too. I think you just found your "solution". The next logical step is to plan a meet and greet at your store and get to know some more of "them"

 

[wrightme]

Yes, we have allowed open carry people in our store, the last one about 4 months ago.

So......


Why the change in view NOW? If you do not post, you have immunity. So, by NOT posting, you stay with your status quo, AND gain immunity under the new law. THAT is known as a "win-win" for your store.


Seriously, WHY would you desire to not gain that immunity, with NO effort from you and your employees?

 

[wrightme]

<snip>I can tell you there is about a 15% drop in business in the past month. Economy or boycott?
<snip>
Bret

Hmmm.....


Now, what drove the "boycott" into existence? Was it because you chose to go public with your choice to post your store? Because all of a sudden, the new law changed it so that instead of "guns in the open," you have "guns in the open and/or concealed?"



You tried to find a solution to a perceived problem, and are possibly reaping the "rewards" of your choice to enter into public discussion about it. Frankly, it looks like you hoped for free advertising by taking this through the news. Maybe, just maybe, you created what you are experiencing. Has that yet entered your mind?

 

[roberthaackdiamonds]

The law has changed (by majority vote) and suddenly you are not the only one with a "choice" any longer. We can conceal and now, but NOW, you take issue with guns in your store???? WTF? where were you been on the issue 7 months ago? 2 years ago?

You're not happy that we now have a choice to carry concealed and you don't want us in your store if we do. So, to me it sounds like you are playing politics (poorly). "i want a solution", I want everyone to be happy", "Kumbaya!" "you can shop here on Tuesday's and Thursdays from noon to 4 with your gun" WTF.... I say that again WTF!?!?!?

Actually, I am very happy you can conceal. I think the riverwest issue never would have happened if the law was in force then. I will allow my employees to conceal; including my family members. My wife has been shot at / and she returned fire. Her "macho" partner, ran away. I pray that no one has to be put under any conditions as to where you need to draw your weapon. You do not / nor does anyone know how you will react if you see thugs with guns. You adrenaline will be pumping. Fight? Hold?

The law states that you can't drink and carry inside, but you can outside. Why is that? My brother and I debate this (he is a conceal carrier in California) and I mentioned the law about the bars, and he said you don't want a drunk to have a gun; as you don't know how you will react in certain circumstances.

What are you going to do if Summerfest / Statefair / your favorite "fest" asks you not to bring your gun to their event? What about your place of worship? What about businesses that asks their employees not to bring in their weapon. Do you quit?

I still might allow concealed in my store. I am looking at insurance, penalties, etc. before I make my decision.

 

[roberthaackdiamonds]

Hmmm.....


You tried to find a solution to a perceived problem, and are possibly reaping the "rewards" of your choice to enter into public discussion about it. Frankly, it looks like you hoped for free advertising by taking this through the news. Maybe, just maybe, you created what you are experiencing. Has that yet entered your mind?

Hi,

I never took it to the news, the news actually came to me. Just like they asked my opinion on Obama care. On how gold / silver hit an all time high, etc. But just one opinion caused this uproar. So, when there is smoke, there is fire. If people are upset over a jewelry store; come November, how are both sides going to react? Is this going to get the anti gun people to congo drum the stores that allow concealed? I don't have the answer; but I am willing to take the time to talk about it. I have talked to some politicians, and I do believe some good will come of it for both sides.

 

[IcrewUH60]

Actually, I am very happy you can conceal. [...]

I still might allow concealed in my store. I am looking at insurance, penalties, etc. before I make my decision.

yaaaawwwwwn.

[video=youtube;esUTn6L0UDU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esUTn6L0UDU[/video]

 

[rcawdor57]

Why Is This Thread Still Active?

Post. Don't Post. Who cares? Seems simple to me. Posted - NO FIREARMS: Criminals have free reign, store has no immunity. Not Posted: People may not or may (with permits) legally carry concealed, store has immunity.

There it is. There is nothing else to discuss.

 

[springfield 1911]

Ok, How about this, Since this is an open carry forum and we are open carriers and at the request of Bret that his place of business will be an open carry friendly place since he has allowed open carry in the past and all he asks is no conceal carry . can we live with that.? Personally I say we can and as Gov. can regulate the manner of carry at this time Bret should be allowed too also.

It's a win win. A no concealed sign and Bret can still be free of liability because you will still be allowed open carry. As logables would put it (quote) just my opinion.

 

[IcrewUH60]

Hi Bret, you might be the nicest guy in the world. You might have the greatest of intentions. But I'm not buying most of what your putting out here.

[...] I have talked to some politicians, and I do believe some good will come of it for both sides.

A day late and a dollar short..... Governor Walker signed the bill on Friday. If you don't mind me asking, What are you trying to accomplish?

Again, everything I see is pointing to a "political disagreement" on the fundamentals of self protection. I do not think that you see this as a "personal safety" issue or even a "legal debate" for the matter. And for Go*'s sake, quit trying to lump us in with the whinny sh**s down on the capitol square. We won't be mad at you if you post. Like I said before, I'd probably respect you more for standing up for what you believe in. But do not try to equate this with a boycott. If you ask us to stay away.... we will.

kind of brings up another point... you say you are getting it from both sides? Really? If the anti's (as they are called) won't shop at your store if you don't post.... then who's boycotting who?

Good luck in the future and I personally hope the economy turns around for all of us. Even diamond retailers.

 

[roberthaackdiamonds]

great! and everyone made it out alive too. I think you just found your "solution". The next logical step is to plan a meet and greet at your store and get to know some more of "them"

Let's play the media. Do you remember when a neighbor took out his loaded weapon, just because the other neighbor was doing something silly like playing basketball? (Don't remember the situation). Would you want someone like that with a concealed weapon?

In November, concealed weapon carriers need a GREAT story; like someone saving someone. Or, like the River West situation. I believe if the concealed weapon law was in affect, this might have not happened. You don't need a story where a concealed weapon carrier tried to help out, and something went wrong.

 

[IcrewUH60]

[...] Would you want someone like that with a concealed weapon? [...]

the better question Bret, (and the obvious deeper issue here) is do I have the "moral authority" to "regulate" a free person because of something he "MIGHT" do? We already have laws on the books about threatening someone with deadly force. Enforce those laws.

This (like I said) is not about the option to carry in "your" store. It's about how you feel about your fellow man having the option to carry at all.

I refuse to allow you and your friends to turn this country into the Nanny State of "I need to be Regulated" because "he/she is afraind of xyz"

good day sir.

 

[McX]

Ok, How about this, Since this is an open carry forum and we are open carriers and at the request of Bret that his place of business will be an open carry friendly place since he has allowed open carry in the past and all he asks is no conceal carry . can we live with that.? Personally I say we can and as Gov. can regulate the manner of carry at this time Bret should be allowed too also.

It's a win win. A no concealed sign and Bret can still be free of liability because you will still be allowed open carry.

Ditto, and this thread should be closed.

 

[wrightme]

Let's play the media. Do you remember when a neighbor took out his loaded weapon, just because the other neighbor was doing something silly like playing basketball? (Don't remember the situation). Would you want someone like that with a concealed weapon?

The person who is likely to take a loaded weapon against a neighbor playing basketball is as likely to conceal illegally. Frankly, the exception does not prove the rule.

In November, concealed weapon carriers need a GREAT story; like someone saving someone. Or, like the River West situation. I believe if the concealed weapon law was in affect, this might have not happened. You don't need a story where a concealed weapon carrier tried to help out, and something went wrong.

Frankly, CC or OC don't "need a great story." They just need others to recognize their 2nd Amendment Right.

 

[protias]

I agree, this should not be an issue. I was totally shocked about the threats against my family, people not willing to shop our store, etc. I am not saying the threats are from people who come to this forum, and openly discuss the issues. This law doesn't take affect until November. Why boycott / protest / not support / what ever you want to call it, now?

I can tell you there is about a 15% drop in business in the past month. Economy or boycott?

I can tell you that I try to work and solve problems. Last year, Greenfield was trying to pass a transaction tax, on anything a store buys in Greenfield. Jewelry / books / DVD's / clothing, etc. The city was complaining that my store was overworking their detective, and needed to get more funds. Well, I was able to help overturn this law. http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-499734

Bret

We aren't boycotting anyone. You said you will be putting a sign up. We let everyone here know that so we don't accidentally go in. We respect your right to do business they way you want.

So......


Why the change in view NOW? If you do not post, you have immunity. So, by NOT posting, you stay with your status quo, AND gain immunity under the new law. THAT is known as a "win-win" for your store.


Seriously, WHY would you desire to not gain that immunity, with NO effort from you and your employees?

This would be the biggest thing to consider.

Frankly, CC or OC don't "need a great story." They just need others to recognize their 2nd Amendment Right.

And more so, Article 1, Section 25.

 

[Lurchiron]

Let's play the media. Do you remember when a neighbor took out his loaded weapon, just because the other neighbor was doing something silly like playing basketball? (Don't remember the situation). Would you want someone like that with a concealed weapon?

In November, concealed weapon carriers need a GREAT story; like someone saving someone. Or, like the River West situation. I believe if the concealed weapon law was in affect, this might have not happened. You don't need a story where a concealed weapon carrier tried to help out, and something went wrong.

Shouldn't you be in Amsterdam, instead of "slumming it" 'round these parts?
View attachment 6264 :shocker:

 

[M-Taliesin]

Another Perspective!

Howdy Bret!
While I am not from Wisconsin, one of the folks over here asked me to contact you by personal mail but I thought it might be more helpful to post on the open forum about a few things worthy of consideration.

Before I start, I saw a post you made about a positive CCW story in the news. I've got one for ya!
Perhaps you remember the Tucson shooting that badly injured representative Gifford?
There was nobody there who could counter the shooter. He opened fire and shot a whole bunch of people.
Inside a nearby Walgreens was a CCW permit holder who ran to the sound of the gunfire hoping to help stop the attack.

You can view the story here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwT3v5OpSFQ

As he approached, the shooter had already been knocked to the ground but another man was holding the pistol.
The young man, Joseph Zamudio, had his hand on his own pistol under his jacket as he approached. He noticed
that the pistol slide was locked back, indicating the weapon was out of ammunition. He decided deadly force was
unlikely required but still prepared to act, he shouted "Drop your weapon!" bystanders indicated that the man holding
the gun was not the shooter, but the man on the ground. Seeing his pistol wasn't needed for the situation, he then
helped restrain the shooter until police arrived. If he had been in that crowd, he may well have stopped the shooter
before a whole bunch of people got hurt. So there's a great CCW story for you.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to share a typical experience from yesterday. You can read my post
here: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?92716-So-I-Walk-into-the-Jewelry-Store...
The title of the post is in the link: So I walk into the jewelry store....

We've had concealed carry for more than a decade, and our results have been terrific. Since I just applied for my CCW
2 weeks ago, I still need to OC at least until I get my CCW permit in the mail. Still, I am likely to continue OC'ing where
I feel comfortable doing so. Since I started carrying my sidearm, I have yet to be bothered by anybody or denied access
to any business I frequent. When I start to carry concealed (when I choose) I expect nothing to be different. In fact, I
try to figure out if people around me are carrying concealed, and figure people must be doing a super job because I have
never spotted anybody carrying concealed.

Since I started carrying OC; I've gone into banks, supermarkets with armed security, jewelry stores, Home Depot,
restaurants, auto part stores, convenience stores, gas stations, Best Buy, and a whole gaggle of other businesses
without anybody reacting to my loaded pistol holstered on my hip. Now if the weapon were concealed, they'd not
even know it was on me at all. I should also note that I've carried openly in Colorado, Nebraska and Kansas.

I'm hoping you regard my post here as another perspective that you might consider, and one rendered without
some of the anxiety that has manifested in some of the posts in this thread. I'm just trying to let you know that
businesses here in the west seem to understand that the man or woman who carries a permit has already been
checked by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, their fingerprints taken,
photograph on record, and are the last people you need to fret about. In order to qualify for a CCW permit in
Colorado, it is also required for each applicant to produce proof of suitable training and firearm proficiency to
the county sheriff in their jurisdiction. Open carriers are also responsible and law abiding citizens. Criminals do
not generally carry firearms openly because it may attract police attention and end up with them in jail. I'd
also like to mention that you are not required to have training to carry openly. Concealed carriers in Colorado
MUST! Among things they learn are the Colorado statutes as pertain to the use of deadly physical force.

I'd like to encourage you to welcome concealed permit carriers just as you have open carry folks. I believe it
would be to your ultimate benefit to do so, and a sign on your business stating "Concealed Carry Welcome Here"
it would send a message to bad guys that they are real likely to encounter armed resistance to any illegal
behavior they might be contemplating. Bad guys don't tend to the heroic. They prefer softer targets. They'd
likely avoid your place like the plague!

It is my hope you will appreciate that I am sharing what I hope seems like a level headed perspective without
all the angst that folks are feeling, yourself included. You mentioned your wife being armed, and that's good.
So too is having law abiding citizens visit your store, especially if a criminal should make a play for your money
or jewelry. Just as lives may have been saved in Tuscon, if only that CCW permit holder had been in the crowd,
the presence of a CCW carrier in your store when trouble comes along may save your store and other customers
from becoming victims.

Respectfully yours,
Blessings,
M-Taliesin

 

[Mlutz]

Yes, we have allowed open carry people in our store, the last one about 4 months ago.

That act was legal... Why wasnt the oc'r askd to leave? However, you now are going to say "No Guns"... I don't get it...

 

[9026543]

Actually, I am very happy you can conceal. I think the riverwest issue never would have happened if the law was in force then. I will allow my employees to conceal; including my family members. My wife has been shot at / and she returned fire. Her "macho" partner, ran away. I pray that no one has to be put under any conditions as to where you need to draw your weapon. You do not / nor does anyone know how you will react if you see thugs with guns. You adrenaline will be pumping. Fight? Hold?

The law states that you can't drink and carry inside, but you can outside. Why is that? My brother and I debate this (he is a conceal carrier in California) and I mentioned the law about the bars, and he said you don't want a drunk to have a gun; as you don't know how you will react in certain circumstances.

What are you going to do if Summerfest / Statefair / your favorite "fest" asks you not to bring your gun to their event? What about your place of worship? What about businesses that asks their employees not to bring in their weapon. Do you quit?

I still might allow concealed in my store. I am looking at insurance, penalties, etc. before I make my decision.

Why are you going to allow your family and employees to carry? If you put up your stupid sign stating no firearms allowed that should make your store one if the safest places in WI.

I work part time in a pawn shop and one of the conditions of employment was that I carry while in the store account of the large amounts of cash, diamonds, gold, silver and firearms on hand. The owner does not post against firearms being carried by his customers. If he did there would not be a need for him or his employees to carry a firearm while on duty because everyone would obey the sign now wouldn't they?

By the way I live in Missouri and since concealed carry was passed in 2003 and finally went into effect in 2004 there have been no situations such as you seem to fear from concealed carry persons. So your fears that seem to come from the anti carry groups are baseless.

 

[MKEgal]

They continue to make themselves look immature and foolish with their posts.

They've pretty much calmed down now, & we seem to be back to discussing the issues instead of having a playground fight. If we're trying to persuade people that we're reasonable & not prone to misbehaving, how about we show that here?

I have no real issue with his choice, but he now looks to have an issue with my choice...

Bingo.

To clarify - that SPECIFIC question is for solutions.

You are seeking a solution... to an ersatz problem.

Bingo.

This law doesn't take effect until November.
Why boycott / protest / not support / what ever you want to call it, now?
I can tell you there is about a 15% drop in business in the past month.

Maybe because you've already announced your new policy.
That's a pretty substantial drop. How does it compare to the same time period in past years?

The city was complaining that my store was overworking their detective...

1) They have one detective?
2) S/he doesn't have any other crime in the city to investigate?

We can conceal and NOW you take issue with guns in your store????
Where were you on the issue 7 months ago? 2 years ago?
"What was your policy on guns in the store before the new law was passed?"

Exactly. And since there haven't been problems w/ people carrying legally, WHY CHANGE??

I think the riverwest issue never would have happened if the law was in force then.

Um, Bret? We're already allowed to carry openly. That's kinda why we're here on this site.
The victims of that mob were mostly adults, and if they're average law-abiding sorts, they have the same options the rest of us here do in re self-defense.
They suffered the consequences of their choice. Maybe they'll re-evaluate now.
I think that if the mob had run into an OC picnic, with a line of armed determined adults, the mob would have passed by.
If picnicers were carrying concealed, they'd look exactly like the unarmed victims, so people would get attacked & shot.

I will allow my employees to conceal

They can do it now if you specifically let them. (WI v. Hamdan: http://www.wicourts.gov/sc/opinions/01/pdf/01-0056.pdf)
They can carry openly now if you don't prohibit it.

The law states that you can't drink and carry inside, but you can outside. Why is that?

Because the State can regulate what happens on the premises of a business w/ a class B license. (A bar or restaurant serving alcohol for on-premises consumption.) The State cannot regulate (or at least, not as much), conduct that happens in a park, at a street festival, in someone's yard, or in a private home.

What are you going to do if... your favorite "fest" asks you not to bring your gun?

Not go. Summerfest carved out an exception for itself in the bill, so they'll certainly post.
But I can't think of many places where someone is more in need of protection than walking back to her car late at night with a bunch of drunken rowdies following her.
You have heard about the stabbing this year @ Summerfest, right?
And the various beatings, not only this year?
So much for their "security" & being a "safe" place!

What about your place of worship?

BTDT. Haven't gone back. Others facing the same choice have tried to use reason to persuade whoever made the decision to change it, or simply taken their money elsewhere, as with any other buisness.
It's extremely hypocritical for a church, existance protected by the First Amendment, to want to infringe the right of its members & visitors to self-protection, which is protected by the Second. (And the WI Constitution.)

What about businesses that asks their employees not to bring in their weapon.

I'll keep a copy of the written policy w/ instructions for my heirs to sue the bejeezus out of that company if I'm injured or killed by violence they didn't prevent, but prohibited me from defending myself against.

all he asks is no conceal carry. can we live with that?

Sure.

a neighbor took out his loaded weapon, just because the other neighbor was doing something silly like playing basketball?

Which is a crime, which is why he was arrested. He broke a serious law; why do you think he'd blink at breaking a less serious one? (Concealing w/o a permit.)

...concealed weapon carriers need a GREAT story; like someone saving someone.

Have a look at this webpage: http://www.learnaboutguns.com/
The menu is on the left, and about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom is the link titled "Armed Self Defense Examples".
Last I looked, there were about 400. His page summarizes the story, then links either to the original news story, or to another summary which links to the story.
The first page has 50 stories, of which 15 are definitely not in the home. (Several I can't tell from the title.)
There are 8 pages.

Here's a news article http://www.wsbtv.com/news/26106852/detail.html about a man being attacked in a parking lot (2 on 1, 1 had a knife), drawing his concealed pistol, & killing one robber. Note that it says nobody but the robber was harmed.

And another article http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/r...when-victim-shoots-first-sheriff-1147980.html about a man thwarting an attempted robbery in a parking lot. 3 on 1 this time.

Both of those were from DEC10.
That first page also has:
wife saves husband,
grandfather saves son & grandkids,
daughter saves mother,
mother saves children,
father saves children...